In article >,
Peter > wrote:

> I've been told that if one's GPS is an IFR approved unit (KLN94B in my
> case) and it's not placarded "VFR only" then I am required to have the
> latest database, otherwise I am not complying with the minimum
> equipment list (in ANY flight) - is this correct?

I would think that if a database update was required and the unit displayed
an appropriate message wrt the database validity, then that would satisfy
any placard requirement.

Does your aircraft have an MEL?



>
> If so, what would this mean for the validity of insurance?

You'd have to find out from your insurance company.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

During my instrument training I was told that if you have an IFR
certified GPS, it had to be updated if you were using it for IFR Flight.
You can use it VFR even if it hasn't been updated
Charlie

Peter wrote:
> I've been told that if one's GPS is an IFR approved unit (KLN94B in my
> case) and it's not placarded "VFR only" then I am required to have the
> latest database, otherwise I am not complying with the minimum
> equipment list (in ANY flight) - is this correct?
>
> If so, what would this mean for the validity of insurance?
>
> Peter.
> --
> Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
> E-mail replies to but remove the X and the Y.
> Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT necessary.

Peter wrote:
> I've been told that if one's GPS is an IFR approved unit (KLN94B in my
> case) and it's not placarded "VFR only" then I am required to have the
> latest database, otherwise I am not complying with the minimum
> equipment list (in ANY flight) - is this correct?

You need to read the flight manual supplement for your aircraft.
Different installations have different reqirements. It's
doubtful that "MEL" applies at all here since your plane most
likely doesn't have one.

As far as non-IFR flight, nobody suggests ripping the alitmeter out
of my plane because my IFR certs have expired.

In rec.aviation.misc Charlie Derk > wrote:
: During my instrument training I was told that if you have an IFR
: certified GPS, it had to be updated if you were using it for IFR Flight.
: You can use it VFR even if it hasn't been updated
: Charlie

As I've heard it, you can technically fly IFR with an expired database, so
long as you have verified that the data for every piece of information in the database
that you will use is correct.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:
> In rec.aviation.misc Charlie Derk > wrote:
> : During my instrument training I was told that if you have an IFR
> : certified GPS, it had to be updated if you were using it for IFR Flight.

The answer is it depends on the model of GPS. The POH Supplement will
tell you.


> : You can use it VFR even if it hasn't been updated

Right.

Exactly... Using it for an IFR GPS is all about the POH supplement.
Garmin requires updates. UPSAT did not - just required that you verify
that the approach hasn't changed.

None of this prevents you from using the GPS, of course, for enroute
VFR use.

Now some years ago there was a controversy started by Flying magazine
because of the speculation that an over zealous FAA inspector might
view an out of date database as a violation. But the FAA clarified
that this was not the case. Same deal as with outdated charts in the
plane. Perfectly okay... But you MUST have the current information
you need to complete the flight safely. That same outdated chart (or
database) won't get you out of jail if you violate some airspace (or
worse, violate the terrain).

On Tue, 31 May 2005 12:24:32 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

>In rec.aviation.misc Charlie Derk > wrote:
>: During my instrument training I was told that if you have an IFR
>: certified GPS, it had to be updated if you were using it for IFR Flight.
>: You can use it VFR even if it hasn't been updated
>: Charlie
>
> As I've heard it, you can technically fly IFR with an expired database, so
>long as you have verified that the data for every piece of information in the database
>that you will use is correct.
>
>-Cory


I've heard that recently myself. You can use an expired database GPS
for all the VFR you want. But to use it for IFR, you first have to
confirm the database information for any approach you'll use hasn't
changed. Or you have to manually chage it in the database if it has
changed.

I don't have a reference on that, but the subject came up in a group
of instructors and a couple of FAA inspectors. In any case, I know
the FAA is allowing a local FBO to rent out and train in a plane with
a LONG expired database. This Garmin 430 was definitely installed
complaint with TSO C129, but the owner was too cheap to keep up the
database updates.


Chuck

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:33:58 GMT, Chuck > wrote:

>On Tue, 31 May 2005 12:24:32 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:
>
>>In rec.aviation.misc Charlie Derk > wrote:
>>: During my instrument training I was told that if you have an IFR
>>: certified GPS, it had to be updated if you were using it for IFR Flight.
>>: You can use it VFR even if it hasn't been updated
>>: Charlie
>>
>> As I've heard it, you can technically fly IFR with an expired database, so
>>long as you have verified that the data for every piece of information in the database
>>that you will use is correct.
>>
>>-Cory
>
>
>I've heard that recently myself. You can use an expired database GPS
>for all the VFR you want. But to use it for IFR, you first have to
>confirm the database information for any approach you'll use hasn't
>changed. Or you have to manually chage it in the database if it has
>changed.

Unless precluded by the flight manual supplement or, if incorporated
by reference like "Must be operated in accordance with the owners
manual" in the supplement, the users guide.

The KLN89B and KLN94 are apparently two such units - their supplement
introduction states "NOTE: A current database is required by
regulation in order to use the (blah) GPS system for non-precision
approaches". The KLN94 limitations page states "Instrument approaches
must be accomplished in accordance with approved instrument approach
procedures that are retrieved from the KLN 94 database. The KLN 94
aeronautical database must incorporate the current update cycle." The
89B's limitations page is similar, except they also have a minimum
software revision limitation.

Doesn't look to have any discretion to verify and go with expired
databases with these boxes at least.

Peter Clark > wrote:

> The KLN89B and KLN94 are apparently two such units - their supplement
> introduction states "NOTE: A current database is required by
> regulation in order to use the (blah) GPS system for non-precision
> approaches".

Minus the words "by regulation," my Garmin GNS430 GPS also has such as
restriction in the POH supplement.

I recall reading here that at least one other GNS430 owner did not have
such a restriction in his supplement. One possible explanation may be that
my unit, as purchased by the previous owner of the aircraft, was one of the
first GNS430s available. Perhaps Garmin and/or the FAA loosened that
restriction as time went on.

--
Peter


















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Chuck wrote:
> You can use an expired database GPS
> for all the VFR you want. But to use it for IFR, you first have to
> confirm the database information for any approach you'll use hasn't
> changed. Or you have to manually chage it in the database if it has
> changed.
>
> I don't have a reference on that, ... <snip>

The applicable document is the Supplemental POH. The Supplemental POH is
approved on an installation by installation basis, so there is technically no
general answer, except RTFM for your airplane.

In practice, the GPS manufacturer provides a boilerplate SPOH, so that's what
gets sent into OK City for approval.

Dave

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:33:58 GMT, Chuck > wrote:

>On Tue, 31 May 2005 12:24:32 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:
>
>>In rec.aviation.misc Charlie Derk > wrote:
>>: During my instrument training I was told that if you have an IFR
>>: certified GPS, it had to be updated if you were using it for IFR Flight.
>>: You can use it VFR even if it hasn't been updated
>>: Charlie
>>
>> As I've heard it, you can technically fly IFR with an expired database, so
>>long as you have verified that the data for every piece of information in the database
>>that you will use is correct.
>>

All you need is a set of paper charts that are up-to-date, unless
otherwise stated in either the manual or POH. This was covered in one
of the flying mags this past month.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>>-Cory
>
>
>I've heard that recently myself. You can use an expired database GPS
>for all the VFR you want. But to use it for IFR, you first have to
>confirm the database information for any approach you'll use hasn't
>changed. Or you have to manually chage it in the database if it has
>changed.
>
>I don't have a reference on that, but the subject came up in a group
>of instructors and a couple of FAA inspectors. In any case, I know
>the FAA is allowing a local FBO to rent out and train in a plane with
>a LONG expired database. This Garmin 430 was definitely installed
>complaint with TSO C129, but the owner was too cheap to keep up the
>database updates.
>
>
>Chuck
>
>